also, you should fix your site so selecting text works.

Birnam

Well, I'd say skip the MBTI and go straight on to Jung (Aristotle too, while you're at it).

But then again, the MBTI is a nice simplification for when you're not in the mood for an intense analysis of a person. As far as personality tests in general go, the MBTI test is pretty good. Certainly way better than "the color code" (which infuriated me as a child because it wasn't specific enough - I tried to make my own typing system, which failed because I didn't know enough about psychology), or ennegrams, or the scientology test (I will just say hah! to that one :-D ).

I was going to rant about 'S' types and their lack of vision, but instead I'll tell you why I like Jung's theories-
I don't read people very naturally, I suppose I could if I practiced or something ... but by learning those sort of obvious observations about people, I can place those that I meet in little boxen and can treat them accordingly (crazy kid who is an ESTP I compliment a lot, and encourage him in his latest wild scheme. ISFJ mother-in-law gets touchy feely stuff ... meh! &c.)
It gives me something to think about. I'm interested in almost any type of classification system (and am working on one for recipes right now). I've come up with my own twists on the typing system (so that there are a lot more than 16 types ;-) ).
And lastly, I also like having that little bit of reassurance that I'm not the only person like me out there. I think that is a concern a lot of INTPs have for some reason.

And, maybe the whole system is skewed to the INTP end of the spectrum because that was Jung's own "type", so that other types see it as a misjudgment of themselves where those of us who like it (a vast majority whom are -NT- types) don't see those misjudgments because we ourselves are also blinded by the same personal perceptions...

Birnam: InTp Aristotle admiree

http://bmj.bmjjournals.com/cgi/eletters/328/7450/1244

I get your point about Meyer-Briggs and I like your site.

"I've noticed that [the M-B test] appeals to people who ... lack creativity - the sort who are good at cataloging data but aren't very good at coming up with original ideas."

A good one-sentence description of a Meyer-Briggs "S" type!

"(I have a *little* bit of knowledge about this sort of thing... )"

I'm glad to know that you acknowledge that you may have more to learn....

Dear folks,

The myer-briggs multi axis etc test is a simplification of Jung's work. It facilitates the talking about four scales. For example, "Introverts",in general as a useful concept of group behavior (such as INTJ, ISFJ, INTP, ISTP), whereas Keirsey says its more complicated than that,you will make assertions that aren't true for all temperaments

When compared with Jung's typology, or later developments from it like the Myer-Briggs system, this interpretation is quite simplistic. It is however based on Gurdjieff's occult analysis of human nature.

So there you are, Physcologically significant, probably not, routed in the occult, yes.

Wrote my 1st comment--it didn't register. Wrote my 2nd comment and both registered. I look like an idiot. Well, my IS Briggs Meyer!

Hi-I just wanted to update and clarify my December 5th comment to you. My name really is Briggs Meyer. My grandmother (Grammie) was Calphurnia Briggs (Appleton, Wis) and married a gentleman named Albert Meyer. Ergo her name became Calphurnia (Fern) Briggs Meyer. She had a son, my father, named William Briggs Meyer. My parents named me Robert Briggs Meyer, but always called me Briggs. So, my name for 57 years has been Briggs Meyer. Boring, huh? rbriggsmeyer@aol.com. Briggsy-San Francisco

Hey, I just wanted to update (and clarify) my December 5th message to you. My name really is Briggs Meyer. Just a fluke. My grandmother was Calphurnia Briggs and married a guy named Meyer. So, she became Calphurnia Briggs Meyer. She had a son, my father, named William Briggs Meyer. My parents named me Robert Briggs Meyer, but always called me by my middle name, Briggs, since 1946. So, I am known far and not so wide as Briggs Meyer. Thanks for letting me vent! Briggsy--San Francisco rbriggsmeyer@aol.com

Of course Meyer-Brigss has an "elegant simplicity". There's nothing in the scales that can't be deduced form rading the questions. "Hey, according to Meyer-Briggs, I'm shy! I had *no* idea!"

The test is entire ad-hoc, has never been validated against another instrument, and has no predictive value whatsoever. It has a great pseudo-intellectual appeal, though. I've noticed that it appeals to people who are very rigid and lack creativity- the sort who are good at cataloging data but aren't very good at coming up with original ideas. It's also popular with the sort of person who likes to brag about their Stanford-Binet test score.

(I have a *little* bit of knowledge about this sort of thing... a Master's in psych and most of my PhD work)

Thanks for the cool website!! Briggs Meyer (San Francisco)

I find the MBTI extremely helpful. Far from being 'quackery', it has an elegant simplicity that, when revealed, evokes the 'of course!' reaction usually associated with a profound mathematical or physical theory. Human has to interact with external world ('EW'). How? Human (1)has to take in information from EW (2)has to output decisions/actions to EW (3)has an innate bias towards inputting or outputting. And the fourth MBTI factor is the bias towards living either 'in one's head' or in the EW. Now, (3) and (4) are two-way switches. But so also are (1) and (2), I suppose because evolutionary pressures have generated two 'competing/complementary' attributes [rather like the evolutionary development of male and female? - but I digress!]. Overall then, 2x2x2x2=16 MBTI 'types'.

I don't feel pigeonholed by being described as brown-eyed rather than blue-eyed, so why should I feel pigeonholed by being described as an MBTI INTP-type? It's actually a great relief to find I'm not alone (INTP is very much one of the minority types)! And the MBTI 'packaged description' of an INTP *IS* me and I feel very happy to have a 'home' in my one box out of the 16. If fits well, and I can relax in it! Most importantly, knowing one's partner's MBTI type is a real facilitator of good communication.

Alicia,

Reagan bugs me in more ways than I can briefly list. Basically he represents the libralism that is destroying our society. People like Reagan conflate the Good with Consumer Choice. "Keep the Government out of our bedrooms, out of our markets (which ultimately includes our doctor's office), off our backs, etc." becomes a mantra for license. The handwringing from free market "conservatives" then rings a little false. A free marketeer Prottie with an astrology problem now represents conservativism? Well, then count me out of the party, if that is indeed what conservativism means.

Dear Erik,

But what about the traps that the Angelic Doctor himself inadvertantly sets up for those not up to the reading of him? No, I say stay with the safe, the sedate, the normative, the utterly lucid writings of St. John of the Cross--he has a great deal things more relevant to say regarding personality than any modern analyst, and I've yet to discover the springs in his traps. (And he is not too western--in fact, his world view is utterly balanced--neither country nor western--simply transcendant.)

shalom,

Steven

Aristotle,

I think that your name is fantastic. See it as less of a cross to bear and more of a set of expectations. At least everyone knows who he is. Erik, on the other hand, well there were a lot of King Eriks, then there was St. Erik, King of Sweden, then you have Erik the Red and his boy Leif Eriksson.

The biggest difficulty with my name is fighting the constant anglicizations of it. There is no "c" in the Norse alphabet! Don't turn me into an Englishman!

Steven,

There are traps that Aristotle can set up, but those traps can be succesfully navigated with the aid of the Angelic Doctor. I never have used the words "too" and "western" in the same sentence before, so I have trouble conceiving of this as a problem.

Of course I am narrow-minded, but not a complete bigot. I like BOTH types of music, Country as well as Western.

Erik,

I hate to disagree, no, stop, back up, I love to disagree--but even the strongest egalitarian strain in me suggests that not everyone is up to Aristotle--in fact Artistotle, like Darwin, does more damage by those unready misinterpreting what he has to say than by bewing unread. Social Darwinism and all sorts of idiocy have their Artistotilian equivalents.

Some people can dive into those things and make sense of them--for some they are impenetrable. I find Artistotle entirely too rigid and western to really make sense to me--his insistence in the Metaphysics on certain aspects of ontology seems to me to be an issue that (1) I probably don't understand completely and (2) if I understand as well as I think I do, I find Eastern philosophy more compatible with my world view.

But for many, even getting to the point of disagreement is an effort that is utterly overwhelming and ultimately, not particularly fruitful.

shalom,

Steven

Come, read me then :-)

(I know, I know. I'm more muddled than my namesake. What can I say - it's a cross of a name to bear.)

I see the MBTI about the way I see the other quizzes that pop up from time to time around here. It is pseudo-scientific fun. At least it does not carry the religious trappings of astrology, although one could make a case for the modern religion of scientism being invoked in these quizzes.
I first encountered MBTI as a trapping of some 'work improvement' management seminar to which I was subjected in some workplace or another. Since I am one of the odd ones who truly enjoys taking tests (a faculty that served me well in grad school) the MBTI was one of the redeeming features of an otherwise horrendous mandatory work-place training event.
The pseudo-scientific crap that I really object to is the enneagram. That is dangerous indeed.
BTW - among the things I objected to in Ronald Reagan was his reliance upon astrology. Or maybe it was Nancy relied on astrology and influenced him. Well, that and his signing into law California's pre Roe v. Wade abortion liberalization law.

Steven,

It's those scientific trappings that worry me. At least with astrology, the "science" claims are so preposterous as to make sense only to the most foolish of girls (no offense to the smart female readers of this blog, but women fall for this astrology stuff a lot more readily than men). I am also not so sure about anyone not being ready for Artistotle. The way to get ready is to dig in. I am not so willing to coddle intelligent folks, much prefering the swift kick to the rear approach to encouragement.

Dear Erik,

Perhaps a trifle more strongly stated than I would do; however, I concur with your note about Aristotle. However, many are not up to Aristotle and there is little harm to it so long as you take it about as seriously as most of those "astrological" personality reads. I figure they have about equal validity--Meyer's Briggs is just festooned with slightly better language and slightly more scientific trappings.

shalom,

Steven